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You know, in the midst of arguing feminist theory and character interpretations and suchlike, I think I'm finally getting a finger on some of the reasoning behind my character and pairing preferences.

I hate damsels. I've always hated damsels, I think I knew that much back when Belle and Jasmine were my favorite Disney females growing up. Callo Merlose is one of my favorite female characters for the utterly non-damselish way she handled her game-long kidnapping by scary cultists. I mean, I can make exceptions, but on the whole, I just... the weak woman who has to be saved by the dashing man? No, thank you.

Interestingly, though, I don't really like it as a reversal, either. I mean, I dislike it less and sometimes think it's really cute when the helpless guy is saved by his awesome girlfriend, but... I think it's because guys aren't portrayed as STAYING helpless. So when the strong woman swoops in to save him, it isn't so much that she' sweeping him off his feet as it is that she's got his back.

I think it's just that I don't like helpless characters. And I think my favorite relationship dynamic is that mutual got-your-back thing.

I mean, looking back at the pairings I've liked over my fandom tenure, they ALL have some element of that. Locke/Celes? They're both strong enough to protect each other and they balance each other out (and I don't like it when Celes goes all weepy and when Locke has to save her at the end). Butz/Faris. Cloud/Tifa - there's a mutual need, they compensate for each other's weaknesses and make each other stronger when they learn to trust each other. Zax/Aerith - she's powerful in a very different way from him, and they balance each other well. Tidus/Yuna - he's her guardian and her greatest inspiration, but she's the one saving the world and moving mountains to do it, and journeying with her helps Tidus accept his own fate. I didn't really like Sora/Kairi until Kairi showed that she could hold her own and support and save him too. Same deal with Riku/Kairi - I only began to love it when I started to consider how they could balance and save each other. Sora/Riku was a very mutual "got your back" friendly rivalry from word one, and they save each other back and forth all the time (though usually, Sora's saving him in the subtle emotional ways while Riku's saving his skin; still counts). Phoenix/Edgeworth - Edgeworth's interesting, in that he's very much a male damsel at first... but the way Phoenix saved him was imperfect, Edgeworth had to go on to save himself. And then as he heals and grows, he supports Phoenix just as much in return. Rise From The Ashes and Farewell, My Turnabout both give me the same "yee" feeling when I see how Edgeworth's helping and supporting Phoenix in their very unique partnership-by-opposition. Diego/Mia is very much a relationship of equals. Ron/Desiree - he saved her, but he's not this huge strongman, he's just a meek, sweet guy who did the right thing and ended up with a wonderful, very strong wife. Gumshoe/Maggey? Life keeps knocking her down but she just keeps on getting up, and he'll be there to lend a hand anytime she needs it. Fakir/Ahiru - he saves her, she saves him back, and it turns out his true strength isn't even in fighting; he can help her in other ways. Hell, to veer to the somewhat absurd, I'm shipping Pearl/player!Dawn from freaking Pokemon Diamond/Pearl because it's so very much a relationship of strong equals, he likes and respects her so much... In Order of the Stick, my current favorite pairing is Kazumi/Daigo - a pair of strong and competent samurai who are very comfortable kicking ass together and continue to do so as a married pair. (Seriously, last panel here. How cute?)

Every single OTP of mine has that sense of equality, "got your back", or other balance to it. There is not one single pairing I like where the power levels are unequal - from the badass warriors who kick ass together to the sweet domestics who don't really do any world-saving but just support each other equally, these are the pairings I like. Gender doesn't even matter in this. I love how Phoenix saved Edgeworth, but you can bet I wouldn't ship them so hard if Edgeworth hadn't turned around and started returning the favor.

(Interestingly, the one couple I like where one participant IS at a disadvantage - Franziska/Adrian, Adrian has a dependency disorder - balances, because Franziska needs Adrian just as much. In different ways and for different reasons, but there is still balance.

Edit: Well, okay, and there's Zax/Cloud, too. Cloud isn't able to do nearly as much for Zax as Zax does for him. But Zax treats him as an equal. And later on, Cloud's plight gives Zax focus and determination. ... plus if Zax'd lived they'd have had a very adorable and balanced threesome with Aerith, in my happy world. :p)

Really, I might have figured this out sooner. I've always known that I hated damsels in distress and I've hated the seme/uke formula about as long as I've been in yaoi. Why didn't I realize before now that equal pairings PUSH MY BUTTONS really hard?

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I really freakin' agree here. I like that while on one side of the relationship, person A saves person B, but then person B will save person A in return. Balance.

I think what you enjoy is more of what a relationship should be. Not the "ideal" omg sweep me off my feet -- but that relationships ARE about equality. That's what you like.

And it's very reasonable.

I wonder if that's not the reasoning behind a lot of rivalshipping? With a rivalry, you sort of have to mutually respect one another's skills - you aren't going to feel especially determined to beat someone you don't respect, right? I wonder how many fandoms with rivalslash pairings have canon het pairings for one of the rivals that aren't very satisfying in that sense of equality...

Yeah, I do think this is close to what a good relationship is. On ANY level, from platonic to romantic. I just end up shipping a whole lot of them

Hey, another one. Wolfwood/Milly. Love them to death. She took the upper hand away from him, but did so without weakening him. Balance.

I think rivalshipping is because rivals just tend to have more chemistry and have more developed relationships since you spend so much time on their motivations for being rivals. If the rivals are a male/female pair, people immediately assume there is some sexual tension there, to the point where the subtext can be argued as canonical (in a literary analysis sense).

It's why I always get so annoyed when antiyaoi types shout "but they hate each other, they'd never sleep together!" And that makes them different from male/female rivals... how?

Yes, yes, and more yes.

I admit that I do have a weakness for the girl that, at first glance, does come off as a Damsel. There's something enjoyable about watching the apparent-Damsel develop and become the equal of the Hero. My two favorite examples are probably Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne of Gundam Seed and Yuri Hyuga and Alice Elliot from Shadow Hearts.

In both cases, you have a girl who seems very much the Damsel. Yuri's probably closer to the Cliche Hero, in terms of being far more Badass and Manly to begin with. Kira's the Angsty Young Hesitant Hero, but I'm getting away from the main point.

Like with Aerith and Zax, you have two people with very different kinds of strength that mutually support each other. It really annoys me that more people don't realize there's different kinds of strength, that Beating People Up doesn't always make you the strongest or the coolest character.

[Tangent Mode!]

While I've never minded the Seme/Uke thing as it applies within Real Relationships context, a lot of fandom folks seem to miss that Real People don't fit into neat little boxes. Typically, when you see that sort of dynamic between people, it's a choice on the part of both people (whether Roleplaying or merely being happy in old-fashioned gender roles) and as such, made as a /couple/ .....or it's an Abusive relationship.

[No More Tangent!]

I am reminded of an article I read after the movie Mulan came out, about the effect it had on young girls. The author talked about her daughter, who went from 'Waiting for her Prince/True Love to rescue her from the tower!' to marching off with a toy sword in hand, declaring she would be late for dinner because she had to 'rescue the Emperor/save China'. She mentioned that her daughter's teachers had remarked on her sudden confidence, speaking up in class more and volunteering for things.

Edited 2007-11-27 10:56 (UTC)

Oh, yes. It's like the butterfly coming out of the chrysalis, isn't it? I'm not familiar with either of your examples, but they both sound delicious. ♥

Yes. Oh, yes. Aerith's no good at hitting people with her stick, but... Now that I'm older and I've come to understand her more, I've come to realize she's really amazingly strong. And she's strong in a pretty pink dress. And one of the (many) things I love about Zax is that I think he really admires that in her and loves her for it.

Yuna's one of my favorite heroines for the same reason, and she also starts out strongly Damsel-flavored - but as she finds herself, she becomes toweringly strong and I just... really admire that quiet strength. She speaks softly and has such a demure manner about her, but my kingdom for that girl's inner strength...

[Tangent: Yeah - if people are fine with that kind of power dynamic and happy in their relationship that way, hey! But the way it's applied in fandom has always, always irked me. Do you know how happy I was to finally find a Z/C doujin where Cloud actually seemed to be built almost as strongly as Zax and seemed to be having fun with the sex? ;_;

... wait, I think my love of Zax/Cloud may have poked a hole in my theory. XD I guess it's my exception? Or I think Cloud could have balanced the relationship out given time... hmm.]

... really? Really, seriously? That's the most... I... I don't think I've... I don't have words. That's amazing and beautiful and fantastic.

I seriously, SERIOUSLY suggest the Shadow Hearts series of video games to anyone and everyone. It's FANTASTIC. Especially for the above stated reasons involving the main couple being incredibly Equal in their partnership, growing into stronger people BECAUSE of each other.

Which is what a great pair is about, in my personal opinion. It's a relationship that creates visible growth of both people involved, through their interactions with each other.

Can I second this suggestion? I started replaying the first game for the third time today. It's so good. Oh so good.

...even if the third game sorta sucks. The first two are at least okay.

...even if the third game sorta sucks.

Aww, I like From The New World. D:

Oh, I'm not saying it's awful. I just don't like Shania. At all.

She strips when she fuses. "WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?" says the warmblooded male.

That's funny. I don't like Shania. At all!

She strips when she fuses. "WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?" says the warmblooded male.

Seriously. I'm glad there's an option to turn that off and just have her FUSE like normal.

Every time I play, I find myself snarking at the screen when she says something. She's just such.....a one-dimensional character, which is disappointing considering the high bar the series has set with their characters. ~~Hilda would have made a better Heroine in my opinion. She's actually GOT a personality, unlike Shania.~~

Y'know? Firstly, you've named pretty much all of my favourite pairings (save Sora/Riku and Edgey/Phoenix. But that's just personal preference, since... frankly? I like het better :\ ) And I think... I agree. Perfectly.

It bugged the shit out of me in KHI that Kairi never got to shine. I could tell that she was strong, god damn it. She says to Sora, "Take me with you!" and the only reason she stays is because he asks her to. And... somehow I have to give her props for not being a dummy and following him but on the other hand... yeah. I like to think she had her own misadventures during that time, though... what was she doing with Leon and co at that time, anyway...?

And I hate how Nomura gave her the stupidest keyblade ever, but at least she fucking GOT ONE. Gah.

... and Fakir/Ahiru is my favourite couple in any story, ever. Yes. Over all the tales I've read/watched, everything I've seen, Fakir/Ahiru speaks to me the most, because of the journey those two go through and what they become in the end. It's so goddamn beautiful and it makes my heart both sing and break to think on it.

And I'm glad someone else recognizes that Aerith is strong. Like Kairi I think she's a terribly underappreciated character (maybe not as much as Kairi, but I've seen PLENTY of Aerith-haters) I love that woman to death... maybe a little too much since she gets tangled in a lot of my KH crack-pairings >>; (Marith or Zorith? yes plz >.<) But she was one of my favourites in FFVII, and even though I knew it was coming I was still upset when she died. Hoom.

And I feel so sorry for poor Yuna... her CHARACTER is great, but I hated her for the longest time becuase she had the worst. voiceactor. EVER. It was only on my second playthrough that I realized wait, she's actually pretty cool, it's just that her VA annoys the shit out of me.

... [/rant]

Yes, in hindsight I really like Kairi's little sparks of strength in KH1, but I think it may be at least partly because of the more overt displays of strength in KH2 making me like her more in hindsight. She's a spunky, gutsy little thing but doesn't get much chance to show it. :(

(Am I the only one who likes the flowery keyblade? It's pretty! And despite being pretty is no less kickass! I like that she can go beat the shit out of things with flowers.)

God, yes, Fakir/Ahiru is just... nnnggh. You said it, right there. I have nothing to add.

Aerith is so strong! She's just so wonderful. So flawed, in such compelling and human ways, but so amazingly strong and able to grow past her flaws and. Ahh. ;_; I too was upset when she died, despite being spoiled.

... Zorith?

Hahahaha XD The VA gets better in the sequel - in the original I think she was just trying so hard to match the original cadence of the Japanese lines, which. doesn't. work so well when you're speaking English.

Ienzo/Aerith. It's a very long story as to how it happened x_X I didn't MEAN it to, it just kind of DID while I was writing something else, and my brain went "... wait, you shouldn't work, but you DO."

*sigh*

Re: English with a Japanese inflection... this is why so many Japanese women annoy the SHIT out of me, because they speak English in a very, very cutesy, irritating, "zomg kawaiiiiii" way with a very Japanese inflection. They all sound like fucking retarded toddlers and I want to strangle them x_X

*This is speaking from experience of living in Japan.

Lots of word (especially when it comes to Belle and Jasmine - they were so my favourites, too; if for nothing else, for reading books and wearing pants. XD)

Fandom pairings aside, there's a very simple explanation why dashing-man-saves-damsel-from-clutches-of-death is so prominent. We're turned on by danger! If you've just been in a situation where your adrenalin level soared and your heart started pumping, you're likely to find the people around you more attractive. Put simply, it makes us horny. That's why the ideal date includes a horror movie. Not only does it give you an excuse to grab your date's hand in the cinema, but after being scared for a while, you're more likely to be in the mood for sex. Works on both men and women, by the way.

And I feel so sorry for poor Yuna... her CHARACTER is great, but I hated her for the longest time becuase she had the worst. voiceactor. EVER. It was only on my second playthrough that I realized wait, she's actually pretty cool, it's just that her VA annoys the shit out of me.

Heh. I'm guilty of this, too. If a character has a whiny, nasal voice and an irritating accent, I find it very difficult to like them. Voice is a really big part of characterisation.

I'm so used to Yuna's voice in the English dub (which I like, although the actress lacks skill even in my opinion and sounds like she's trying to imitate the Japanese VA a bit too closely) that I make a face every time I hear the original Japanese voice. It's just so... high. XD

Haha, yes, exactly. XD And neither of 'em took any shit!

... I think I knew the basic theory of that but I didn't know about the horror movies on dates. How interesting. XD

... And by that logic, then shouldn't a situation where you're BOTH in danger and BOTH kickassedly beat your way out of it be extra sexy? You look over at him, he looks over at you, the adrenaline's going, you've both just clearly demonstrated what fine sets of genes you have... eh? eh? :D

(Hey, I see you on Trillian a lot but you're always away or busy! So I don't message you. Should I seize the opportunity anyway when I see you on or... XD)

... And by that logic, then shouldn't a situation where you're BOTH in danger and BOTH kickassedly beat your way out of it be extra sexy? You look over at him, he looks over at you, the adrenaline's going, you've both just clearly demonstrated what fine sets of genes you have... eh? eh? :D

Hell yeah. :D So if we're talking ideal dates, I guess a paintball game would be pretty good, too... Especially if it provides lots of surprise attacks and both really get into the mood of the game. X)

(Hey, I see you on Trillian a lot but you're always away or busy! So I don't message you. Should I seize the opportunity anyway when I see you on or... XD)

Oh, I tend to put myself on Busy automatically, because I'm hardly ever doing nothing but chatting on Messenger. So basically, Busy is my usual status. Feel free to poke me then. X) If I'm Away, that usually means I'm roleplaying and might be a bit slow in answering. (I'm RPing Ted right now! XD)

Whole bunches of word, and dude, go you for figuring out how your pairing preferences work! :D I think I definitely agree on pretty much all of that (even though I don't know most of the fandoms, le sad!) I've always found I much more enjoy relationships if there's a sense of equality and give-and-take from both parties, rather than this strict sub/dom sense. I dunno why, but it never sits right with me (although I know for some, that's what presses their buttons. :O)

And someday I'll get PW and figure out what ships I have there... XD

You said it all there, mate.

Which I guess is why I pine so much for Zack/Cloud in which Cloud turns out to actually be an equal to Zack, regardless of being in SOLDIER or not, by mere strength of character. Why does he have to be so damn meek all the time? Argh. [/rant]

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