I do so love discourse

[fuyu]

Over the past couple hours, overdramatized and I have been having a fascinating discussion about religion and religions. :O With her permission, the conversation is reproduced under the cut. There is also a little bonus Firefly geekery.

Because this is about religion, obviously herein lies possible controversy and/or offense! :D The former would not necessarily be a bad thing as long as it's civil on all sides, but we both sincerely hope not to cause any of the latter. If we do, we humbly apologize. This is just a couple of bored and slightly frustrated agnostics havin' a talk.

♥


overdramatized: I have to disagree with some of the assumptions here [on an atheism site I was reading and had just linked her to]. Religion isn't responsible for human stupidity and bullshit. HUMAN STUPIDITY AND BULLSHIT is responsible for human stupidity and bullshit.
voodoobob: Well, yes.
voodoobob: And I don't really think there's NO good in religion, as there's plenty. But it also gives a really powerful weapon to the people who are inclined to be raving nuts anyway.
overdramatized: True.
overdramatized: Then again, that's like that argument that videogames corrupt youth. They only really damage people who'd be frippin' nuts anyway.
voodoobob: True, but I mean, there's a difference there. Anyone with a reasonably healthy mind can tell a video game is fake and for fun, and nobody who likes them or sells them or produces them says otherwise. Hell, the video game experience is fundamentally self-aware, because you're holding a controller to make a picture move around on a screen and do things.
overdramatized: ...I see your point.
overdramatized: Religion is all about making people believe it's true.
voodoobob: *nods* And society tends to give religion a fair amount of clout.
voodoobob: Just because it's religion.
overdramatized: It's the tragedy of anyone using something inherently benign for stupid purposes.
voodoobob: And otherwise perfectly intelligent and thoughtful and rational people can be swayed in negative directions by it, and often because it's just what they were taught from a young age. And what bugs me is that it seems to me that in most religion, there's the sense of "this is right", with the implication and sometimes outright statement "therefore that is wrong", with the frequent result of "we will try to fix you", which rubs me exactly the wrong way.
voodoobob: Again, I won't say there's no good in religion, because I've seen examples of fantastic good being done in the name of faith, and that's excellent, so I have a hard time condemning religion. I just also have a hard time defending it, especially with things like the whole gay rights debate where my position is diametrically opposite to the vocal religious right.
voodoobob: I guess my feeling about religion is that it's not necessarily good or bad, but it's dangerous; it should be handled with great care, questioned, and not taken literally.
overdramatized: ...tch, yes. I feel sort of the same way, as I'm profoundly unreligious myself. But I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who have the capacity for that sort of belief, so it's difficult for me to...eh, this is hard to verbalize.
voodoobob: *nod* There's sort of a duality, right?
overdramatized: I respect religion. I don't have much respect for people. I guess that's what it comes down to.
voodoobob: It might be closer to the other way for me, despite how many examples of humans being stupid that I see. XD
overdramatized: The tenets of Christianity, for example, are REALLY love and peace and stuff. Christianity has Vash Syndrome, if you're into Trigun at all. The distortions are all manmade.
voodoobob: I dunno, the Bible's really all over the place on that kinda stuff. Though if we're talking strictly New Testament... eh, there's still things that are raised-eyebrow-worthy.
voodoobob: Christianity at its best has Vash Syndrome, I'd say, but the trouble is we frequently don't see it at its best.
overdramatized: My parents, when I came to them with questions, told me to remember that the Bible was written by simple shepherds for simple shepherds. The spirit of a religion can't be taken literally from the text. And the Old Testament doesn't count. That was messed up. Incest and overdoses of vengeance for the win.
voodoobob: But also, The Old Testament is basically the Torah, isn't it?
overdramatized: ...yes. And I'm. Not so fond of Judaism as I am of Christianity.
voodoobob: So what do we say about Judaism?
overdramatized: Judaism is more intrinsically...closed off? than Christianity is. Christianity is all about converting the gentiles, yo, for PEACE AND LOVE. Judaism is about being the Chosen People. So I have more sympathy for its foibles, I suppose.
voodoobob: I admit I personally have some trouble with the concept that the spirit of a religion can't be taken literally from the text. I'm awfully linear and cause/effect in my thinking, sometimes, so I kinda think... if we're not supposed to take the spirit of the religion from the text, then what is the text THERE for?

Ahhh, I see what you're saying.
overdramatized: Not that I'm anti-Jewish or anything. 0_o
voodoobob: I dunno, I kind of have less sympathy for the whole converting thing. Which I will freely admit is hypocritical of me because I almost always try to convince in any argument I find myself in. XD

No, I didn't get that feeling. :3
voodoobob: Less fond of =/= actively against, right?
overdramatized: Exactly.
overdramatized: I actually think that the paegant of Jewish culture as viewed through the medium of things like novels by Chaim Potok is beautiful.
voodoobob: The same can be said for a lot of religious cultures, I think. There is something beautiful about religion.
voodoobob: When it's not being used for ugly things.
overdramatized: PERFECT way to put it.
overdramatized: Which is exactly why I have a lot of respect for religion in itself, if not the people who will potentially abuse it.
voodoobob: *nod*
overdramatized: Spiritualism hits hard.
voodoobob: One of the greatest things I've read about in the last few months?
voodoobob: An article about the reaction of the community after that guy shot, what was it, five Amish girls?
voodoobob: The article mentioned that the community extended their sympathy to the family of the guy, and said they'd have plenty of friends and neighbors willing to give them the support they needed.
overdramatized: wow. I doubt I'd have been that forgiving. 0_o
voodoobob: How easy would it have been to extend the stigma to the guy's family, when they weren't at fault? Just to shun them due to association? But this community's faith moved them to be able to say "wow, this sucks for you guys too, doesn't it? you have as many friends here as you need, we're all in this together". It was beautiful.
overdramatized: Seriously.
voodoobob: That's the kind of thing we need more of/
voodoobob: ... on that subject, and to be geeky for a moment: Shepherd Book is actually a character that I think is something very close to an ideal Christian, in his attitude towards life and how he interacts with the crew.
overdramatized: YES.
overdramatized: His acceptance, sort of.
overdramatized: And taking the sort of absolution from Inara.
overdramatized: AND "YOU'RE GOING TO THE SPECIAL HELL." XDDDD
voodoobob: YES. XDDDD
overdramatized: So much win.
voodoobob: And when River was trying to correct his Bible.
overdramatized: Awwww. That was so cute.
voodoobob: Yess.
overdramatized: THE HAIR
voodoobob: YES XD That WAS some scary hair. XD
overdramatized: ...my hair looks like that if I brush it out after hair spray. Just. Brown instead of gray.
voodoobob: "He's putting the hair away now, River." "It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting." XD
voodoobob: .... XDD
overdramatized: Ahaha I have scary hair. >_>
voodoobob:
voodoobob: So wow that went off into a Firefly tangent real fast. XD
overdramatized: OF COURSE.
voodoobob: XD XD Firefly has conversation-dominating powers!
But yeah, Book is a good example. Especially his attitude towards his Bible, his explaining that it means something more than what the words say and that's the part that's important. More Christians should, pardon the horrible joke, take a page out of his book on that.
overdramatized: Oh snap. XD But yeah.
voodoobob: I mean, dude. Cultural taboo against masturbation from a misunderstanding of one verse in the Bible? Not shiny.
overdramatized: If you take the Bible literally, there's only room for 144,000 people in Heaven. Which is just bullshit. Some sheep farmer from a zillion years ago was trying to think of an incomprehensibly huge number. These days he'd have said "a googleplex."
voodoobob: "NO YOU CANNOT MASTURBATE. NO. NEVER. BAD!" + "NO SEXUAL HIJINKS UNTIL MARRIAGE ON PAIN OF HELL!" = frustrated teens who are too ashamed to relieve their tension solo knocking each other up and sharing diseases because they don't have a clue how to do it safely because nobody teaches them. All because someone somewhere who was powerful misunderstood what God was pissed at Onan for.

Yeaaaaah.
voodoobob: I have serious problems with "the Bible is the literal word of God!" No it's not. If it is, your God is a raving lunatic, or else playing one hell of a mean trick on his people.
overdramatized: Exactly.
voodoobob: Also, meaning just really does not come through that well after a bajillion translations.
voodoobob: What was it, Aramaic -> Hebrew -> Greek -> Latin -> English or something? Did I miss a few steps?
overdramatized: Probably... XD
voodoobob: The sad thing about that is I think a lot of fundamentalists just aren't aware that Jesus and his followers didn't speak English.
overdramatized: THEY SPOKE ENGLISH OVER IN THE MIDDLE EAST 2000 YEARS AGO. YES.
voodoobob: Or about the subtleties of translation. Until I started learning Japanese and translating, I didn't realize how often it was impossible to convey an entire meaning intact.

XD XD
voodoobob: WE'RE TALKING FUNDAMENTALISTS HERE.
overdramatized: XDDD Yes.
voodoobob: This is one of the many many reasons I think religion should be given less clout, and also one of the reasons for my fervent, almost fanatical belief in the value of good education.
voodoobob: People need a good solid grounding in logic and at least a glimpse of a broader worldview before you let them play with a Bible, I think. XD
overdramatized: My father went to Catholic school, so he KNOWS his freaking Biblical interpretations. He's also quite religious, by the way. The Jehovah's Witnesses used to come to the door to give us pamphlets and my dad would lean on the door comfortably and argue doctrine for them for upwards of three hours. It was HILARIOUS.
voodoobob: Believe what you want! Just do it with your BRAIN.

.... hahahhahahahaha that's completely awesome. XD
overdramatized: He's the one who always told me the text is just the meanest of guidelines, so.
voodoobob: I see. :o
overdramatized: And Jehovah's Witnesses are text-centrist fundamentalists. THOSE WERE FUN CONVERSATIONS.
voodoobob: I BET THEY WERE.
voodoobob: Seriously, this is going to get into an education rant on my part. XD The human mind is surprisingly malleable. If you raise your kid with text-centric fundamentalism before logic and understanding of the world, that's how they're going to learn, and they'll get cemented in that, and no amount of argument can possibly sway them then.
voodoobob: And you have then quite possibly wasted a potentially brilliant mind.
voodoobob: Unless they're already inclined to question things and think their own way out, but that doesn't happen often enough.
overdramatized: At the same time, I can see where the "no evolution in schools" type of people are coming from. If that's what you really believe, and education rips that from you and turns you to a laughingstock and an embarrassment before the children you want to raise as well as you know how... not to say I agree with the suppression of information. Just to say that I know where the frantic parents are coming from. -_-
voodoobob: I had a Jehovah's Witness friend in high school, lovely girl, cheerful and fun, graduated valedictorian (or salutatorian - I get confused on that because I associate her with another friend in our year who was *also* one of those two), and I liked her, it's just... there were things we could not have conversations about. It's almost amazing we got on as well as we did.

... yeeaaah, I see your point. -_-
overdramatized: Mm. I have a friend now who's Islamic. She's perfectly kind and sweet and fun and she gets better grades in chem than I do.
overdramatized: She really believes at some level that Allah protects her and her family from harm more than he does me because one her ancestors twelve times removed was a prophet.
overdramatized: Holiness by blood.
voodoobob: ... Wow.
overdramatized: Yeah.
voodoobob: Yeah, there are times where you have to just... not go there.
overdramatized: Exactly. It's not like she's stupid or anything. It's just. What she believes.
voodoobob: *nod*
overdramatized: You know how I said I have less sympathy for Judaism as a religion, because its spirit is less inclusive than Christianity?
voodoobob: (Which is another reason I go "gnnnh" at religious indoctrination. so easy to restrict a brilliant mind. so easy.)
Yeah?
overdramatized: My dad makes a convincing case for real dislike of the spirit of Islam. It's the one religion that actually advocates 'conversion by the sword.' It's...haha...it's in their text.
voodoobob: Yeaaaah.
overdramatized: And it's so easy and so difficult to go down that road. To stop separating the religion and the people. It's. Weird.
voodoobob: And really, really dangerous.
voodoobob: Another reason! Unless everyone all starts believing in the same religion, it often becomes a wedge between peoples for the reason you just stated.
overdramatized: And you still have to respect the people who believe what they believe and try to make their belief better from the inside. Hell, you even have to respect the extremists. I'm kind of in awe of them, really. So much conviction.
voodoobob: If only it could be channeled to better causes.
overdramatized: Separating the good from the bad in all that morass is just hard. But I can't believe a world of disaffected athiests would be better. "All things done well for the glory of god" would become...what?
voodoobob: True. It'd be more stable, I think, but...
overdramatized: For one thing, a lot of disaffected athiests are cynical self-important idiots.
voodoobob: ... true XD
voodoobob: How about a world of agnostics? We're much more agreeable.
voodoobob: :D
overdramatized: I just fall down and LAWL at the people who condemn all religion because they don't believe in it. LOOK AT YOURSELVES, PEOPLE. WHO DO YOU LOOK LIKE.
overdramatized: Yeah, agnosticism's fun. Nothing can be known! Let's see the wooooorld! :D
voodoobob: :D :D :D Everything is an adventure when you're an agnostic!
voodoobob: ... and yeah, my dad tells me this story about how there were these atheists picketing a church one time, or something like that... and he made a sign saying "Atheism is a religion" and went up to the fray with it and pissed BOTH sides off. XD
overdramatized: WIN.
overdramatized: It's a belief! A worldview! It totally qualifies.

[And then we started going off-topic and I figured it was as good a time as any to copy the discussion down.]

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Comments

[princealia.livejournal.com]

Religion is SRS BUZNESS xD