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I am mildly confused!

So over on F!S, there's a secret about how Alice shouldn't have been a Princess of Heart, Pocahontas deserved it more - and just about every single reply is along the lines of "Hey, yeah! I never thought of that before! Pocahontas should be a Princess instead of her!"

And I'm just over here going "Uh... but...?"

See, one of the things that made KH1 so great, and which KH2 really fell down on, was that every character, every world, had reasons to be there. All characters filled particular roles, and were pretty well integrated - it's why, in KH1, the Disney-Square fusion feels so much stronger. The Disney worlds, in particular, all had two or three reasons for Sora to be there other than "O HAI U HAS PROBLEMS. I FIX K. O R MAI FRENDZ HEER?" They introduced some plot element, or developed a character, or furthered the conflict... etc. (As opposed to KH2, where the majority of the worlds are "Oh, well, we need some worlds to fill out space and I think we had characters from this one, let's toss it in.") I can think of quite a few off the top of my head for Alice and Wonderland:

- Wonderland's probably the first world you're gonna go to. As a design choice, leading off with a classical world that's an iconic example of Disney whimsy is a pretty solid one. Sora's had his dose of darkness and despair already, Wonderland is playful and lightens the mood, and gives Sora a decent threat to combat without making it feel DIRE AND TERRIFYING right off the bat.

- There's a couple plot hooks you need to introduce early on: there are Heartless everywhere, someone out there has nefarious plans and is kidnapping particular girls. Wonderland fills these nicely. It seems simple and straightforward to help Alice, but then she's gone, leaving you to wonder WTF just happened, and want to go find out.

- Alice is there to be a good person, an innocent, who's coming under fire and that Sora has to save, so he can properly get his hero boots on. She's also there to then disappear mysteriously. I don't like it much, but pretty much her whole purpose is to be a victim, so that Sora can be a hero and see there's something for her to be a victim of.

Granted it's been a long damn time since I watched Pocahontas, but I'm trying to replace Alice with her and Wonderland with her world and... no. Her world doesn't serve the same you've-had-your-angst-now-have-some-silly-crack aesthetic purpose that Wonderland served. Given what I remember of Pocahontas, it would be an insult and a disservice to her to stick her with Alice's role of Victim For The Plot. It suits Alice pretty well, because Alice's whole thing was that she wandered haplessly into and got lost in a world that was FREAKING INSANE, but those aren't Pocahontas's themes at all.

Another point of contention from the secret was that Alice isn't even a princess, how'd she get to be a Princess of Heart? Uh... same way Belle, Cinderella, and possibly Kairi did, I guess. Belle and Cinderella married into royalty, if I recall? Belle especially was a simple French country girl who liked to read. (And isn't even married to the Beast yet, therefore not technically ranked a princess). We know jack diddly squat about Kairi's life in Hollow Bastion, so we don't know if she's royal or not, but even if she is I think it's pretty plain she's left all that behind. Let's not forget Ariel was a princess too, but not a Princess of Heart even though she arguably deserves the status too. And Wendy was under investigation for the possibility of being a Princess, even though she's also not royalty. The whole point of the Princesses of Heart is that they aren't necessarily literal princesses. They can be, sure, but the important thing is their hearts.

I dunno. Maybe I analyze the themes too much. But Pocahontas and her world really wouldn't work in Alice's place, I can see why they went with Alice.

There is also the matter of Pocahontas being Native American, and KH being a Japanese game made by Japanese people in Japan. Yes, it's Disney. Disney in Japan. I dooooon't think I want to see the fallout of them trying to do Pocahontas's story in KH, especially when Disney already bastardized her over here. XD;

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Very good points, all of them. <3

That's probably something that's carried over from the Disney fandom with the whole "But why isn't (*insert heroine here*) a princess if every girl is a princess?1 D:". I personally hate that ideal, but part of me always wants to say that's where they got that from for the game since sometimes Alice is considered a princess for merchandise purposes, along with Mulan, Tinker Bell (well, use to be before they decided she was the star of Peter Pan and gave her her own line :P) and Pocahontas. I don't even think Pocahontas is considered a "princess" in her culture, even if she's royalty by being the chief's daughter. I wanna say that's how she would equate in our culture, but I don't remember.

Pocahontas' world, as much as I like her, would have been WAY too serious for KHI (Maybe even KHII, but considering it deals with racism, I think it might have worked if they did it right). Then again, the KH fandom could have used a dose of that considering most think Disney movies can't ever be serious.

Actually, I remember reading (I think it was wikipedia) that Pocahontas was supposed to be "officially" a Disney princess, and Mulan wasn't - but Mulan was a lot more popular (and deservedly so), so Pocahontas was kind of dropped while Mulan would be quietly put in her place...

Mulan makes a pretty kickass princess anyway.

How long ago was that? Because they still market Pocahontas and Mulan with the other Disney princesses ~~whenever they need to fill that ethnic quota~~, and I hardly ever see Mulan with all of them if wikipedia speaks the truth. I see Mulan more than Pocahontas granted, but replacing Pocahontas with Mulan wouldn't really do much considering they don't utilize either girls all that often. Hell, I hardly see Jasmine with the others when she's suppose to be with the main 6 and she's a princess by birth...yet, they consider Giselle from Enchanted to be a princess and she's no where near a princess. Their definition is shifty :P

I hate calling her a princess, but she is kickass <3

Uuuh, I can't remember, but it was definitely sometime during the last two months. Pretty recent. I can't talk about the market and what I see because I live in Brazil :x and the greatest concentration of Disney merchandize is usually gathered in the toy section of supermarkets... also, I never watched Enchanted.

I think all Disney princesses should be able to defeat a mongol general with a fan and while wearing a dress. Hell, real princesses should, too!

Huh, that's interesting. I've seen more Pocahontas and Mulan stuff in the past couple months than I have since the collection started. Then again, it was just Christmas, so they might go back under their marketing rocks XD. And Giselle is this princess spawn Disney crack baby they consider a "princess" although she never was nor became one in her film. But she won't be officially joining the collection because Disney would have the pay the actress who they based her look off a TON of money for the rest of her life, so yeah, their definition is weird.

Jasmine can! And Ariel might be able if she tried! Kida from Atlantis could kick someone's ass as well!...the others are in question, though XD. I like that they don't all have to be kick ass women, but I'm really tired of being shoved poofy dresses and sparkles in order to be awesome :/

Belle was pretty kickass, and she didn't have to be a tomboy for it. So, no, we don't need the poofy dresses! Just give us women with spines.

...now I want an Atlantis world.

I would squee and flail like mad if there was an Atlantis world. ;_;

Also, Gargoyles, hellsyes. (But I don't think that one will eeeeever happen.)

My beef with Atlantis is that it basically copypasted Nadia and the secret of Blue Water all over the place, then tried to say it was original. I couldn't bring myself to watch it, just looking at the posters made me twitch.

And I need to watch the rest of Gargoyles... stopped on the Future Tense chapter.

...while the concept art looked Nadia-ish, the movie itself reminded me much more of Stargate. (With a sidebar of Indiana Jones and of Voyage au centre de la terre.)

Any time something has more than two sources, half the point of seeing it is to see how they were worked together (not to mention, given the ultimate unoriginality of nearly all plots, the more things go into a given work the better it can claim to be "original.")

Which is perhaps a long way of saying that I was pleasantly surprised by something, but...

Tell me about it. I'd love a part where you get to ride the fishmobiles. Those just amuse me to no end. X3

Gargoyles would be awesome. (As long as we're going with Disney cartoons, can we throw in a Darkwing Duck world? Because that would make my year.)

Yeah, the Pocahontas movie kind of crapped all over actual history. And it wouldn't work as a world, period. Too brown, too "realistic", and where would we shoehorn magical creatures there? All other world in KH have an element of magic, as far as I can see... is Tarzan a KH world?

Yeah, the Pocahontas movie kind of crapped all over actual history.

Excellent way of saying it.

All other worlds in KH have an element of magic, as far as I can see... is Tarzan a KH world?

Tarzan has talking monkeys, so it works. *thumbs up!* I actually think the Tarzan world was the one they worked into the setting and storyline of KH1 the best.

There actually was magic in Pocahontas. Towards the beginning, her tribe told the future through some very clearly defined shapes in the smoke of a fire.

And there was also the talking willow tree. That's a little magical. XD

....oh, right.

Then again, it's not like any of that shit ever made sense. What was the willow tree good for? I can't remember. (Been long since I last watched this movie...)

Oh, since when does Disney Magic have to make sense? XD

Grandmother Willow was the mother/elder figure for Pocahontas, as her mom had died a while ago.

Too brown, too "realistic"

Didn't stop them from bringing in Pirates of the Caribbean for KH2. Although I kinda really wish it had, because Sora and co looked really ridiculous, running around in a world that was so drastically different in look from them.

I actually really enjoyed that. The contrast of BRIGHT PRIMARY COLORS against Port Royal just made me smile. Sheer Disney goofiness for the win.

To each their own, of course. ^^ It just didn't work for me... what I actually would have loved to see (since Sora and co became all aquatic for Atlantica and all spooky for Halloween Town and African animals for Pride Rock) would be Sora, Donald and Goofy altered so that they blended in more in Port Royal. Cos Sora rendered in the same style as Jack, Will and Elizabeth woulda been kinda awesome. XD And equally awesome would be having to fight Heartless when your companions are a duck and a dog in a funny hat. But that's just me.

Pocahontas... really doesn't fit in KH. I can just imagine the fresh outrage if they did include that world.

~~And it's probably not there due to its lack of popularity more than anything.~~

~~or the fact it screwed history sideways~~

~~Yeah, that's kinda what I meant by fresh outrage.~~

There is also the matter of Pocahontas being Native American, and KH being a Japanese game made by Japanese people in Japan. Yes, it's Disney. Disney in Japan. I dooooon't think I want to see the fallout of them trying to do Pocahontas's story in KH, especially when Disney already bastardized her over here. XD;

That is my entire argument right there.

Oh good, I wasn't the only one scratching my head at all that. I mean, not that it wouldn't be fun to see a Pocahontas world in a future game, but I'd say seeing that world is about as likely as seeing a HBoND world: they just weren't popular movies. It's like the secret was blaming KH for the fact that these movies weren't popular, when rather it's pretty much the complete opposite. I was shocked enough that we got a "Tron" world in KH2, but I think that's a) because that movie was much more popular in Japan, and b) that world actually fit with the plot tons better than, say, Port Royal.

And yeah, I agree that the whole "Princess of Heart" title really has absolutely nothing to do with being an actual princess, as Cinderella, Belle, Alice and (I believe) Kairi prove.

What's HBoND? I've been puzzling over that acronym for a bit and can't figure it out

Hunchback of Notre Dame. :3

Oh! Makes sense. XD

Well, 1. Tron rocks hardcore and 2. It DID fit way better with the plot.

... it gives me hope for them putting 20000 Leagues Under the Sea. Ned Land and Captain Nemo yesplzkthxbai. Disney Sea has a whole LAND for 'em, after all...

KH2 made me love the Tron movie. XD I hadn't seen it at all, but when I heard it was going to be in the game, I went and borrowed it to watch anyway. And now I love it, dorkiness and ~~confusing protagonist~~ ~~jumpy plot~~ all.

Huh, still haven't seen 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, although I know it's a classic. :O I have lots of worlds I want, but I find myself really wanting a Bambi world in BBS, mostly 'cause I just want to see stag!Terra. XD

You make an excellent argument. Kudos. :Db

Pocahontas, to me, seems more like the kind of character you'd get in your party than the kind of character that needs to be saved. She's closer to the Mulan end of the Disney Princess scale, and so wouldn't work in Alice's place.

And I think I might be the only person out there who wouldn't mind seeing Pocahontas in a KH game. I would find that spiffy. :D;

Agreed on all points. I actually think one of the strongest things about Princesses of Heart is that most of them are NOT royal blood - I don't THINK Snow White was, and Belle and Cinderella CERTAINLY are not. Hell, the POINT of Belle and Cinderella were that they were NOT princesses but ordinary peasantfolk (well... Cinderella was technically aristocracy but treated like a goddamn peasant) who lucked out. The point is not who you're born to - it's the power of your heart.

And god. Japan is bad enough with their racism (There, I said it.) They don't need to be mucking around with Pochohontas. Kthxbai.

I saw that secret too and I definitely agree with you. There wouldn't be much to do in a Pocahontas world in the first place, I think, and a lot of the princesses were from older Disney movies, which had a lot more princess characters or princess themes in the first place.

I always wondered (before KH2) whether or not Mulan should be a princess of heart, as she's a total badass, but she in no way fits the 'victim' image. Then again, neither do Belle or Jasmine. Mulan and Pocahontas are cut from the same fabric of warrior-women.

..your analysis of Wonderland helps me understand why they made a choice for Alice to be a Princess of Heart, which always confused me before.

Not because of the "princess" part, but because of the "heart" portion of the title -- just about every Disney heroine I can think of has demonstrated more strength of heart than Alice. Alice just wanders around Wonderland (and Looking-Glass Land, for that matter) going "OMGWTFBBQ!"

I wonder whether it would have worked storywise to switch Alice and Wendy? Either the world entire, or just the princess/mistaken for princess part?

(I have yet to play all the way through the original KH; caveat debator.)

FIREFOX ATE MY REPLY. ;_; Let's try again.

See, the thing with the Princesses is more "purity" than "strength"; they don't have to be great strong heroines, just free of darkness.

I don't think swapping either the worlds or the Princess status would work. Neverland is an intermediate world, with a whole different set of thematic purposes. Storywise, it's where (slight spoilers) Sora finds Kairi and learns of her condition, and sees how far Riku has fallen - this is heavy story stuff, and works better on a pirate ship with a pixie and a flying boy than in the LOLCRACK of Wonderland. Also, it's full of affirmation, "you can do anything if you believe!", and galvanizing Sora's will and resolve. This is all stuff Sora needs later in the game, rather than earlier, when he's been through the wringer a bit and is about to REALLY get into the thick of it. The simpler choice of swapping the Princess status doesn't help much either - if Alice isn't really a princess, that gums up the story early on when she's kidnapped. Too much to keep track of too early. Wendy being under investigation but not actually a Princess gets you further into the Princess plot at a good point in the story, after you have the basic idea.

See, one of the things about KH1 that I love, and one of the reason it holds up better than its sequel(s), is how tightly plotted and designed it is. The story is just put together so well. :D

Edited 2008-01-23 02:24 (UTC)

And this does make sense, especially since, if there's one quality Alice has had besides "bewildered," it is that of purity, right back to Miss Liddell.

(Of course, I still think that Wendy's got more purity than some of the others, but one of them is kind of tied up storywise, one of them is the token non-European-or-whatever-Kairi-is, and there's probably something in the contract that wouldn't let the gamemakers swap out Cinderella.) ^_^

I like analysis of how stories or games hold together, and I really hope that I will have the pleasure of playing the first game through.

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late comment on Atlantis

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Coming in late to the party, but...

Re: Coming in late to the party, but...

Re: Coming in late to the party, but...